A Revolutionary Approach to Finding Love On Your Laptop

David:

Welcome to Disarming Data. We're looking at data and privacy from the perspective of two generations.

Paige:

I'm Paige Biderman. I'm a Millennial who grew up in the tech generation.

David:

I'm David Biderman. I'm the Boomer. I don't know anything about tech. I usually lose my cell phone rather than use my cell phone. I'm a tech novice. In this podcast, we'll be having conversations with cyber hackers, privacy experts, and guardians of security, who can explain some of this to me.

Paige:

Dad, you forgot about whistleblowers and other people who are interesting and influential to us.

David:

Paige, you forgot to say thank you for listening to the show.

Paige:

Thanks for listening.

David:

Welcome to Disarming Data, where we provide our listeners with the perspective of two generations on data, privacy, and related issues. I'm the older generation, and my daughter, Paige ... Paige, you want to say hi?

Paige:

Hi. I'm Paige. I'm the Millennial.

David:

She's a Millennial, and we are extraordinarily fortunate today to have Amy Nobile as a guest. Amy is fantastic. Amy, you're going to expand on yourself, but you were in PR. You've written a bunch of books that have super catchy titles, like I Was a Great Mother Before I Had Kids.

Amy:

Yeah.

David:

You'd trade your husband for a housekeeper. I love that one, too. Yeah, I'm sure my wife would, too. But now the reason we have Amy here is because she runs a dating coaching service called Love, Amy. Basically, and I'll shut up after this, you tell your clients how to basically optimize their profile for online dating sites, which falls right into our category of data. So we're so glad to have you. Thanks for joining us.

Amy:

Thank you so much. I'm excited to chat with you guys.

Paige:

We first just like to ask our guests how they got into what they're doing, where they're from originally, just their background. Just as a pretense, my dad has been with my mother forever, so I don't even think he knows the name of dating sites, whereas I have definitely been on multiple of them multiple times.

Amy:

Okay.

Paige:

So we definitely have two different perspectives on this one.

David:

Yeah, yeah. You have multiple boyfriends. Yeah.

Amy:

Okay. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. I'll give you my quick history is I am from the Midwest, outside of Detroit. I was in PR and marketing, as David said, for many years and have written some books. Everything I've done has been to empower women at different points in their lives. About five, six years ago, I got divorced, and I had been with my then-husband 26 years, 20 years married. It was a really tough decision, and here I am in New York City, suddenly single. So I try to kick it old school. I'm trying to chat people up in Starbucks. I'm walking around New York. I'm trying to say hi. Everyone's looking at me like I'm Jeffrey Dahmer, some mass murderer.

Finally, I take my single girlfriends out for drinks. I'm like, "Okay. Give me the juice. How does online dating work? You've got to help me out. I'm sure. There's 100 million users on Bumble. Come on." I just heard horror story after horror story, and I just felt like there had to be a way. I have a nerdy social anthropology brain. I was not scared. I was actually intrigued. So I set out to crack the code of online dating. While I don't recommend this for anybody listening or my clients, I was dating on certain days the four or five and six people per day.

David:

Come on.

Amy:

Yeah. Paige, as you know, you can really drum up a lot of dates.

Paige:

No, you can rack up the dates, definitely.

Amy:

You can rack them up. I came from a giant place of yes. I dated short guys, tall guys, bald guys, every profession. My thing was teeth. They had to have them, or they had to be sort of white. I just came from a place of yes, and I decided this was not about being chosen. This was about human connection without expectation. I said I was going to learn something from every date. I was just going to learn one new thing. So I probably did three years of dating in about six months, and I met my now-fiance on Bumble about four years ago.

David:

[inaudible 00:04:49].

Amy:

Yeah. I was having a ball. I was having a great time. So I started teaching my friends, and then Love, Amy was born literally out of that.

David:

Wow. So you've got to tell us. So what does a day look like with six dates? You've got to tell us what that-

Amy:

I know. That was on the high end. Well, it's exhausting, first of all. But I had my coffee shop, and then I had a bar. I knew the barista. We had a whole system. If I would pull on one earlobe, they knew to linger so that I could get rid of the guy. But I did. I treated it like a job. Paige, you know. It's a side hustle if you do it right. If you want one date a week, even, it's 45 minutes to an hour a day of swiping, talking, because it's a numbers game. If you say hi to 20 people in a day, maybe a couple will respond. Then a lot of people aren't on the apps for the same reasons.

Paige:

Right. So are most of your clients women, or all of your clients women, or do you have male clients as well that come to you?

Amy:

Yeah, good question. About 75% women. I'm getting more men now coming to me, because their egos are being pushed aside. They'll hire a business coach. Why wouldn't they hire a dating coach? So for the guys, it's more like the algorithms. They want to figure it out. They want to get a higher hit rate. It's very funny. The women are like, "Okay, you've got to help me navigate these waters."

Paige:

Yeah. What do you think the major challenges you see people have when it comes to the apps? Because for me personally, anytime I've been on the apps, I've been very just at these periods in my life where I just want to have fun and go out and meet new people. I've never really gone into the dating apps looking for relationships as much, whereas a lot of my friends that go on them are really looking, and they're at these points in their lives where they want to meet their husbands. I find that when you have no pressure and no expectations on the apps, they're the best time ever. I've made really good friends from dating apps that I'm still friends with today. I've met really cool people with really cool careers or whatever it might be, whereas some of my friends, though, that are like, "Oh, I want a husband now or yesterday," they definitely don't seem to have as great of experiences on the apps, because they're just looking for the perfect human being, essentially.

Amy:

Yeah, exactly. How old are you, Paige?

Paige:

I'm 27. So maybe I should be on the apps looking for a husband when I'm on them.

Amy:

No, no. No judgment. I was just curious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would say my sweet spot, the most clients, they're 35 years old. They're 32, 30. They're in their thirties, and like you said, they feel like they've missed the boat. They come to me, and they're superstars at work. They're superstars in every part of their life. They come to me like, "This is the time, and we need to do this yesterday." But there's a lot of stress around it, and here's the disconnect, is when you feel this pressure. I'm all about energy. I'm all about the law of attraction. I'm all about putting out that really high vibration energy. When you are frustrated and you feel like time has screwed you over, your vibration is really low, and guess what you're going to attract? That same vibration. So I think that's an issue.

Also, I think the biggest disconnect for people is they get on the apps, and the apps are a gift. They're amazing, but they're not the same energy of meeting someone in person. So you're trying to squeeze real life energy out of a few crappy pictures, because no one knows how to do this well, and a few lines of someone's trying to be funny. I always say it's the Jerry Seinfeld test. If Jerry Seinfeld were single, and you're a little young for Jerry Seinfeld, but Seth Rogan, well, whoever, right? But if they were single and they were like, "Hey, let's go to dinner," would you go?

Most people are like, "Yeah, I'd go to dinner." But you'd never swipe on Seth Rogan or Jerry Seinfeld or Ted Lasso, right? You'd never swipe on them, because it would be a horrible profile. They'd be white sneakers, trying to be funny. You'd be like, "Ew." So you have to come from a place of really a lot of compassion. I always say they're either in the zone or not, but come from a bigger place of yes, because people often ... I don't know. You tell me, Paige, but a lot of people are better in person.

Paige:

No, they definitely are. I have found that honestly, for me, you know how ... Dad doesn't know this, but they can make a comment on a photo or on a whatever, on one of the questions that you answer or whatever? I've always found that the people that are able to be funnier in those situations, even if they weren't typically people I would go on dates with, I think it's much more about being witty, if you're not the most ... I hate to say if I'm not super physically attracted to the person.

Amy:

It's hard. It's hard to be funny and witty in that scenario. It's hard to do that in your profile, and it's hard in the banter when you're trying to talk to someone on the app. It's very awkward. So I teach people how to banter. I teach people how to really be themselves, instead of treating it like a job interview. There's all kinds of aspects.

Paige:

What do you think are the most important things that people should have on their profile, essentially, or what are big no-nos also?

Amy:

Yeah. Ugh. So many. Men, do not pose with fish. I don't know what the deal is, but no wants to see you holding a giant fish. They really do that. Also, don't pose in front of a Corvette. No one cares. Also, don't have a stunt baby, because you think women want to see you with a baby. "Look how paternal I am." It's like, "That's not your baby. Just don't do that." It's just awful.

David:

People do that? They actually borrow a baby?

Paige:

They definitely do. No, guys love to make it seem like, "Oh, I love kids." I'm like, "I don't care that you like kids."

Amy:

It's confusing. Also, group shots for your first picture. Don't make me figure out who you are. I'm not going to take the time to do that. Lots and lots and lots of pets. It's fine to have some pets, but Dr. Doolittle, not a thing. I think for women, don't use filters. There's a lot less of that now. But I made this mistake. When I first went on Bumble, I barely wrote anything. When I give speeches, I show my original Bumble, which is all the photos are like, "Party girl Amy. Oh, yay. Yeah, I'm so fun." Literally, it was what I thought men wanted to see. Then I show the profile when I met Brett four years ago, and it's more three-dimensional. It's me traveling. It's me meditating. It's me whatever.

But I think it's important for people to know that you're not trying to appeal to the masses. You want more people to not like your profile, because you're being so specific about who you are. You want to say, "You know what? I am ready to meet my partner. I'm excited about this next chapter." You can be fun and kissy and all that, but your best friend should be able to read that profile and go, "Oh my God. That's so Paige. That's so you."

David:

So can you give me an example on what you tell people to learn how to banter online?

Amy:

Well, it's funny, because I have my clients fill out a really long intake form. I get to know them, and it's like all their gifts, their quirks. When we're doing our intake review on video, they don't realize I'm actually dating them. That's a date. I'm actually asking questions. We're on a date. I'm trying to figure it out. It informs a lot for me, and also, it informs what their true nature is. I want to see are you really serious? Are you funny? Are you light and airy? In the banter, the vibe should be you talking to a really good friend on text. That's it. Be yourself, because don't try to be a chameleon and assimilate somebody else's vibe. Just be you. If you're witty and funny and you tease people, do it. They're either going to like you or not. It's fine.

Paige:

That's actually a really good point.

David:

I saw that you actually have a service where they can text you while they're chatting with the prospective date. They can text you questions and stuff, and you'll text them back. You guide them.

Amy:

Yeah. Right now, I can key into whoever's Hinge or Bumble, and at the beginning, I'm them. I'm swiping and talking as them so that they can see how to do it. I did a lot more of that when I first started the business, but they have to be able to do it themselves. So I'm showing them the ropes at the beginning. Yeah, I'm like the Cyrano de Bergerac of ...

Paige:

So this is more for my male friends that are on the shorter side. Have you found it is much more difficult for them on the apps? Because I think I had all mindset when I was on them to six foot minimum.

Amy:

How tall are you?

Paige:

I'm only five six, but I would prefer if I'm going on a date, they need to be at least six feet.

Amy:

Okay. This is such a topic. I bang my head against the wall every day. Anyone listening, Nicole Kidman, Keith Urban, I can go on and on and on. Height is just height, right? If we're looking for a soul connection, we've got to, because I had a client who was five two, and she would only go out with guys six feet tall, like, "Oh my God. Your soulmate's probably five eight, and he's hanging out, wondering where you are." It's thousands and thousands of people you're negating. So I want us all to collectively get over the height thing. I'm so over it. I dated all different heights as well, I think. I don't know why it's become such a thing. It shouldn't be.

Paige:

It's also now, I think, to the point where many guys lie on their profiles about their height, too. [inaudible 00:15:00].

Amy:

Yeah. Everyone lies. Everyone lies about height and age. Yeah. Women lie about their age mostly. Guys lie about their height. If he says he's five nine, he's five seven. It is what it is.

David:

It's unbelievable.

Amy:

Your dad is having a ball.

Paige:

Are you five nine or five eight?

David:

No, I'm six two. Come on.

Paige:

But my dad's one of my favorite people on the planet. I can obviously talk to him about dating. We're very close, but you know what I mean? I asked my mom, too. My mom's only four eleven. She's going to say she's five foot, but she's short, short. But I don't think it would've bothered her if she ever was on the apps that my dad was only five eight, five nine, definitely.

David:

Who knows?

Amy:

Yeah. I dated someone who's shorter than me. I'm five six. I dated someone for three months who was shorter than me. Once you have that amazing connection, why is it such a thing? I think it's just how we grew up. Did you have a tall dad, or was your first boyfriend really tall, or was your first boyfriend a little shorter than you and it ended up horribly, so then now you have PTSD? Height just carries with it a lot of past stories that I think we have to shake off. I really do. That's my opinion.

Paige:

So I think one of my issues, because I'm in a relationship now with someone I met off the apps. I met them in person. But I think one of the issues I have and also when I'm talking to other people and I told them that we were talking to you have is they struggle to take people seriously, just seeing them online only. I always joke. I'm like, "Online dating is where people can be their worst self, almost, without any consequences."

Amy:

It's true in many ways. That is true. But I think the same amazing person you're going to meet in real life at that dinner party two weeks from now is also on the apps, but you're just not going to recognize them. So we have to be forgiving. We have to just say, "Okay." I'll sit side by side with clients. I have a lot of clients in New York, all over the country. But if they're local or I'll be in LA a lot, I'll sit next to them, and it's amazing to listen to what they say. They'll literally go like this. They'll say, "Oh, yeah, he's not funny. Oh, he wouldn't like my friends. Oh, he's not kind." It's like we cannot tell anything about somebody's personality, their character. Are they in the zone? They're ticking certain boxes. Yeah, we'll say hi.

David:

Well, yeah, just on the short, so Paige, the boyfriend before the current boyfriend-

Paige:

The boyfriend from my past.

David:

She had so many. Well, first off, I had dinner with one of my partners. We had some silly warrior retreat, but I had dinner with one of my partners, and I was saying, "We really like this new guy." Andrew is the guy's name. I said, "We really, really like Andrew." He said, "Don't get attached to them."

Amy:

Don't even memorize his name.

David:

"You never know."

Amy:

Do not get attached. Hopefully Andrew's not listening.

Paige:

Andrew would not care. He's very easygoing. I think that's why everyone likes him.

David:

Yeah, well, we like him. But yeah, when Paige was dating the guy before Andrew ... We won't mention his name, I guess.

Amy:

Yeah. He doesn't need to have a name. Guy before Andrew.

David:

The first thing she did, she called up. She said, "Dad, I think I'm going to start going out with him. But there's one thing about him." We said, "Oh, yeah. What? What?" She goes, "He's short." I said that, "Why does that make a difference?"

Paige:

Okay. It always bugged me about this person that they were shorter, right? But I do feel like if he had the personality of my boyfriend now and was short, I wouldn't care.

David:

Right.

Paige:

I feel like it really is a thing with the height where once people are able to just see a person for who they are, it doesn't matter as much. My friends that are so bothered by a guy's height, it's really something to do with their personality, I think, ultimately.

Amy:

Completely, completely. One thing that can help with this is do a FaceTime date first so that you're literally like we are. Especially if height's a thing for you, just try doing some FaceTime dates, because it really takes that out of the equation, and you can see if there's a connection.

Paige:

Do you think people feel awkward on FaceTime, or how do people get over the fear of looking awkward or feeling awkward?

Amy:

Yeah, some people will not. It's weird. Generationally, our age, more like David, in our category, it's like phone calls are great, right? But for Millennials, a lot of my Millennial clients are like, "I'm not doing a phone call. That's so weird." So it just depends what your comfort level is. I'm a big fan of if you can get comfortable with a FaceTime date, a video date, I just think it's so time-saving. You can just see if there's any potential spark.

David:

What do you do? How do you have a drink or something on a video date?

Amy:

Oh, you can. You each make a cocktail. Yeah.

Paige:

That would be my daddy. He'd be like, "Can I drink on the video date?"

Amy:

I see where this is going. I see.

Paige:

Okay. If you're on a first date, you're finally deciding, "I'm going to actually meet up with this person," right? Do you think that meeting for drinks is the ideal first date, or do you think people should be choosing other things for first dates than just going out to get drinks?

Amy:

It's a great question. So I have come up with a different concept, the mini screener date. It's 45 minutes. If you've never met this human, you met them on an app, why are you going to give away four hours on a Saturday night when five minutes in, you're looking across the table like, "Oh, dear God, this is not a match, and now I'm strapped in to four cocktails"? I remember doing that and going to the bathroom so many times during the date, and then I finally grabbed the waiter in the hallway and like, "You need to speed this up. This is just not working." So your first date should just be a coffee, a tea, maybe an early drink, because you have a "dinner" afterwards. That's the best way to do it. That'll change your entire dating game.

Paige:

That's so interesting. When I was on the apps, it would always be like, "Let's meet for drinks. Let's meet at 9:00 or 10:00 PM." Then all of a sudden, it's 1:30 in the morning, and all their friends suddenly came to meet you at some bar as well. Guys love bringing in their friends on date. It's happened to me multiple times.

David:

It's like a spectator sport or something. "Oh, come on."

Amy:

Well, yeah, it's like a rescue mission, or maybe it's not. Then you end up having always one too many cocktail. It's just so easy to throw in that extra cocktail, and then the next day, you just feel like a little bit of like, "I wish I wouldn't have stayed that late" or "Was that necessary?" It just gets messy.

Paige:

Right, or said that thing, because I feel like once everyone starts drinking, it's like you're saying things you wouldn't normally be saying on a first date.

Amy:

Or you don't remember. The next day, you're like, "Oh, I think ... Did I ... Oof. Yeah," that whole shame spiral.

Paige:

Do you find that there are tells? This was something my friend wanted you me to ask, actually, if there are tells that the guy is actually looking for a relationship or if he's just trying to get laid.

Amy:

Yeah, so here's the question you ask. You're sitting there across the table, and you say, "Is there anyone in your life right now that thinks they're in a relationship with you?" No, I'm completely kidding. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. Here's the thing.

Paige:

But that's true.

Amy:

No, it's true. Right off the bat on date one, which is your short date, right? It's 45 minutes near your home. It's early. You simply say, "Hey, I'm being really intentional about my dating life," if that's true for you. You maybe weren't. I mean if you are. Most of my clients are, so I'm being really intentional. Just curious. What are your dating goals? Are you looking casual? Are you looking for a partner? It's amazing to me how many people are so scared of asking that question, but why not? Let's just do it. We need to up-level this, because otherwise I have people who come to me, and they're like, "I was in a relationship for six years. We never talked about kids and marriage. All of a sudden, I assumed. I assumed. I assumed." We've got to normalize talking about these things and asking the questions right upfront, like, "In three years, where do you see your life? Well, who are you with? What are you doing?" We need to make that normal.

Paige:

I definitely feel like it's more a girl thing that they're afraid to ask about it, because I've had so many guys ask me, "What are you actually looking for?" I actually have met guys that were looking for relationships, but I feel like women are so scared that it's going to be a turnoff to the guy or they're going to seem like they're already seeming too crazy and over the top or whatever if they're stating what they actually want.

Amy:

Yeah, I coach to this all the time. Again, no one teaches us how to intentionally date. So we're used to wanting to be chosen. That feels really good to us. So we're used to mirroring and matching on a date. So if they want to go deep, we'll go deep. If they don't want to and they would just want to chit-chat, we'll chit-chat. We have to normalize showing up to the date and with a bit of a roadmap. I teach clients, "What's our first date roadmap? What's your opener? Then what are your two questions you're going to weave in just to see if you're aligned?" so that you walk away going like, "Huh. Okay. Maybe we are a bit aligned. I didn't think we would be," versus, "Oh, I hope he liked me," because when I talk to women, primarily female clients, after dates, the first 20 minutes are all about, "I think he liked me because he da, da, da." Then finally, I let them finish, and I said, "Well, what did you think? Did you like him at all?"

Paige:

That's actually very true. This is what I found, because I can be a very go with the flow person. But my friends are always like, "Oh, you want to meet someone that you can just stay and talk to forever?" I'm like, "I can talk to anyone for a really long time, if I can just meet them where they're at, and then it's fine. But that doesn't mean I actually would be interested in the person."

Amy:

Or if you're aligned. I remember meeting Brett, who I'm engaged to, and on our first date, I'm spiritual. I'm ethereal. He's super well-educated and amazing job and seemed very serious. I wasn't sure, like, "Okay. Are we going to be really aligned? I'm not sure." The minute I asked the question, which I asked everybody on a date ... I always dated guys with kids, because I have kids. So I said, "Tell me about your kids. Tell me about your kids." The minute he started talking about his daughters, his eyes lit up, and I was like, "Whoa, this is a whole different side of him."

Then the other question I would always ask, because it's my number one value, you have to know what your core values are. My number one is gratitude. That's the lens through which I look. So I said to him, "What role does gratitude play in your life?" He was like, "Whoa. That is such a good question." It opened up a conversation that otherwise I don't think we would've gotten to, and that led to the second date. So I think just knowing what you stand for and then asking, "Just what are your two or three questions that you wish people would ask you on dates?" It makes it more fun that way.

Paige:

Do you find that there comes a point where someone gets into a relationship from the apps and then they finally admit that they were seeing you, or are people still embarrassed to say, "Oh, I had to go to a dating coach" or whatever it might be to get support? This is just out of curiosity, too.

Amy:

There's still a stigma. It's definitely lessening. I have clients now coming to me, saying, "Oh my gosh. I hire a health coach. I hire a business coach. Why wouldn't I hire a dating coach to help me with something that we're never taught?" It's coming along, definitely. But it's interesting. COVID, obviously, my business came to a screeching halt when that happened. But about halfway through COVID, something interesting happened that I didn't expect, which is a huge, huge surge in my business. People had reprioritized their lives. They said, "I'm not doing this alone. I don't care what it takes. I need help." My business took off in a whole different way. So I do think that right now, people are more acutely aware of what's important to them and are willing to ask for the help, which is good.

Paige:

Yeah, I feel COVID made people crave connection a lot more, too-

Amy:

A lot.

Paige:

... and really want to find that, because everyone was so isolated for so long.

Amy:

Oh, completely. They would be posting on Instagram in masks and oh, so COVID-compliant. Then on the down low, they were working with me and dating and going out and making out and stuff. It was really interesting.

David:

The advertising companies. They'll say, "We're targeting the guy who has the Volvo and likes to hunt or the guy that has the Corvette and wears the fancy suits." Do you have categories of men and categories of women that you put them in a slot? I don't know if you have names for this specific category or how that works, if at all.

Amy:

Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think that we like to categorize ourselves. So when I do the intake review, someone will say, "Well, I am Ivy League educated" or "I'm very spiritual." I actually try to deconstruct that, because I think we put ourselves in boxes. Then we think we know. I have a trick question on the intake. I have a lot of trick questions. Now all my secrets will be out. But one of them is, "What's your type?" It's a trick question. It's like, "We all have it." I let them go on and on and on. I'm like, "Guess what? We are trying to make a deeper connection." My clients all say the same thing. "I almost didn't swipe on that person. They weren't my type." So I do try to get away from the categories as fast as I can with people.

David:

I got it. Okay.

Paige:

Have you found that money is still a very important thing for women, but not as much men, or it's pretty equal? Because I feel like a lot of my friends are looking for ... Everyone hates to say it, but they are looking for guys that are very, very successful, whereas a lot of my friends that are men tend to not obviously seem to care as much about that. Have you found that to be true?

Amy:

It's a great question, and it's something I ask. It's like, "In terms of ambition, are you okay with carrying the household as a woman, or do you want someone who is making a lot more because you want to have the choice to be a mom and you want to have the choice to not work?" We do have these conversations. I think there is a superficiality aspect, of course, for some people. But I think in general, what I'm hearing and seeing is the ambition is really important. Even if someone is in philanthropy, you want to see that ambition. So it's very individual. I think being honest, though, about your goals and your lifestyle goals is part of the equation.

Paige:

Right. So you think that women should be honest with themselves at the end of the day about what they're looking for when it comes to these more ... I hate to say superficial, but ultimately, though, eventually, if you are looking for a husband, I do feel like finances is such a big part of having a husband.

Amy:

It is.

Paige:

Maybe it's not.

Amy:

It is. But I've seen a lot of surprises, too. I've seen clients who are hellbent on matching with someone who is very wealthy and can afford this amazing lifestyle, but then they end up meeting someone who is more their equal in that regard. Again, it's a soul connection. So I think being open-minded is really important, and I call it discovery dating at the beginning. Just discovery date. Just go out with lots of different professions, lots of different heights, and just see what's out there. So just being open-minded I think is important.

David:

One, how many dates, separate dates, different individuals do they usually date before they find Mr. or Mrs. Right? Then two, do they ask you for your batting record on how many of your clients ultimately get married? Then I guess the third, do you have to go to all of those weddings? That would take a long time.

Amy:

I have been to weddings, yes. People ask me all the time in terms of the success rate, and it's a four-month program. I don't have the crystal ball to know when this person arrives, but when I say there's two measures, one is when you exit my program, how did you feel at the beginning, and then how did you feel at the end? Do you feel now that you have a roadmap, that you feel more confident, that you know which questions to ask, that you know what you stand for and who you're looking for from the inside out? That's really the most important thing from a personal growth standpoint. There's a very, very, very high percentage of my clients who go on to just ... They know they're going on one to two dates a week, and they know how to get there. They're open-minded. I get every other week another email, like, "Guess what? Guess what?" So six out of ten couples now are coming from online dating, so we know that it works.

David:

You're kidding me.

Amy:

Yeah. Yeah. Whitney Wolfe Herd at Bumble was just on CNBC, talking about this. As to your other question, I've had clients where we start working together, and they meet their person in week two. Then I'm coaching to how to build a new relationship. It's total roll of the dice. But I would say on average, how long does it take if you're consistently online dating? Outside of 18 months if you're really consistent about it is what I'm seeing.

David:

Oh, that's a lot of dates.

Amy:

It's a lot of dates. Yeah. It's a lot of dates.

Paige:

Says someone who's been married a very long-

Amy:

David's so curious about the whole thing.

David:

It's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. Oh, so I've got to ask, too, because I have got a story to tell. But how many of your clients are on the rebound and they're really traumatized by the breakup, getting dumped by some guy, and they're emotionally stressed and strained?

Amy:

Yeah. I find out right away. I do information calls before I will take on a client to see if I'm aligned. I can sniff it out, and I'll say to them, "You know what? Go to therapy for three months. Come back to me." You know what I mean? If you're still reeling and you're still in the middle of a horrible, horrible betrayal or breakup or whatever it is, it's just not the time. We're all healing, but you want to be on the outside of it.

David:

Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, so I've got to tell this story. This is stupid, but my partner ... We've all got kids now. So his daughter had the high school boyfriend, and they were super, super close in high school. Then she went away to college, and he may have gone to a different college. I don't know what happened, but they've separated. She went away to college. So she said, "I'm moving on with my life," and she dumped him, right? He's history. Then she goes to college. She finds another guy, who she dates. She's totally enamored to this guy. Year two, this guy dumps her. So she's still in touch with boyfriend number one from high school. So she calls him up and says, "I broke up with so-and-so. I just feel terrible. I'm now totally stressed. When does this end?" This is three years after she broke up with him. He goes, "I'll let you know when it happens."

Amy:

"I'll let you know when I'm over it." Oh my gosh.

Paige:

So I'm notorious for ghosting on the apps. I'm not very nice sometimes. I feel like it's easier than saying, "I'm not interested in you." But I've been ghosted, too. But I haven't taken it that personally, because I do it so much. But what's your advice to people that get ghosted and how to overcome it? Because I feel like I've seen people that I'm friends with seem like they had this amazing date, and they can't wait to go out with this person again. Then they just don't even respond to the text messages.

Amy:

First of all, bravo for admitting that, especially as a woman, like, "Yeah, I ghost people." I love that. Here's what I say. It's just not about you. I think as humans, we take it so personally. My clients will review every text they wrote and every conversation. The thing is, it's that person who's ghosting you. It's their deal. They're not ready, and that's usually what it is. So when I was in it, that would happen a lot. I just navigated it like, "Oh, that's the universe just giving me a little gift, moving people out of the way." I know it's hard, though. People really, "Oh my God. We had three amazing dates. We texted every day. We seemed like we had all these alignments." But what you're looking for is someone's words and actions matching. If they're not matching in any way, it simply means they're not ready or they're not aligned with you.

Paige:

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Actually, I got ghosted by a guy once, and then a year later, we started being friends. I learned, oh, he was going through this very challenging time in life. I feel like I don't know any of these people, really. I have no idea what's going on in their homes or with their family. You just don't know what someone's going through, ever.

Amy:

You don't know. There's a false sense of knowing, that you think you know someone, right? Just FYI, if you're ever in that position again, Paige, I'm a big fan of just writing a quick text saying, "Hey, listen, I think you're great. I'm feeling more of a friendship vibe. I wish you luck," because people really appreciate that. Obviously, there's going to be most of the time mismatches, but it's nice to have that human text, like, "Oh, thank you. I appreciate it."

David:

I got it. So is ghosting ... I don't even know what that is. You're blocking somebody's calls?

Amy:

No, you just disappear.

Paige:

Or you go on a date with them, and you just don't respond like it never happened.

Amy:

Like, "Poof." Like Casper the ghost. Like, "Poof." Yeah. You literally go on the best date of your life, you make out on the street, and then you do not ever hear from that person. Understandably, it can be very hurtful. It can feel like, "Oh, what did I do wrong? What did I say?" It's not really nice. Yeah.

David:

Are most of your clients now ... You say most of them are women. Did the demographic go from college kids to the 35s or most of them in the 35 range?

Amy:

My clients are 25 to 81.

David:

81?

Amy:

81. Yes. Great guy in Marin County. He was dating up a storm. Amazing. But I would say the majority tend to be women in their thirties. That's that range right there of like, "Uh-oh. I've frozen my eggs, and I better get my you-know-what together here."

Paige:

Do you think a big part of it is because women are like, "I want to have kids now, and this is the time period. It's time"?

Amy:

Totally. This is actually really funny. So like I said, I do these information calls every week, and you can get on my calendar. I actually have parents of these women who literally sign up for their kid, but it's like a bait and switch. So I get on the phone. I'm like, "Hey, Susie, what's up?" They're like, "It's Rhonda, her mother. She's not getting any younger. Neither am I." It's actually crazy. I'm like, "Okay, hold on. She actually needs to want this. You can't just gift this without somebody wanting to date." It's actually really funny.

Paige:

Because my parents have never been pressure-y with me about getting married or dating. They've just pressured me about getting an education.

David:

We haven't because there's the succession of the boyfriends.

Paige:

No, but they're much more like, "Be successful yourself," I think is the kind of messaging I got growing up, I would say.

Amy:

But that's great. That's really nice.

Paige:

But do you find that parents do a lot of times put pressure on their kids to-

Amy:

So much pressure. It's insane.

Paige:

Really?

Amy:

Some of my clients will say, "Okay, good. I'm going to call my mom now and give her the update to this week's dates." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. We're not going to do that. This is a closed container. Your mom doesn't need to" ... It's this pressure. I think parents really mean well. But it's a different kind of timeline now with getting pregnant, and everybody is waiting a little longer to find their person or to get married. It's just a different generation. So suddenly, I feel like overnight, the pressure is on. I can't even imagine having parents on me that are looking at me like, "What's going on? Come on. Who do you got this week?" I just feel like that would be awful, just awful.

David:

Remember that statistic? I guess it was in Time Magazine. They said you had a better chance of getting killed in a terrorism accident than getting married at over 35. I can't remember what the age was. That couldn't have been true, could it have been? Remember that?

Amy:

I feel like that was a little dramatic. I do remember that. Talk about fear-based, right? People come to me just full of fear. When you're full of fear, it's really hard to be natural and be yourself in the dating world.

Paige:

I think it's interesting, though, because people put so much pressure on themselves, but now that the divorce rate is so high, I feel like there's this whole new age range of dating, and it's not as cliche to have kids when you're dating. It's not as weird to be dating older, I feel like, as it used to be, because of how often people get married and divorced nowadays. Do you find that to be true as well?

Amy:

That's really interesting. I do find that to be true. For instance, I'll have a client. They're 35 years old, and she's dating a guy who's 44, who's already had one marriage and a couple of kids, and he's willing to start again and have a couple of little kids, right? So it is a completely different scenario. So it's good, in a way, because then your criteria can be broader, and there's more choices. But it's more complicated. That's for sure.

Paige:

Right. Do you think it's much harder for people to meet people when they have kids, obviously, or no, not as much?

Amy:

Not as much anymore. Not as much anymore. There's so many people out there that have kids looking for the same. I think it's important just to get really clear about your goals. Are you okay with blending a family? I had a client. She's 36 years old, and she met a guy who had a toddler. She didn't expect that, but he was fantastic. They're now married. They're going to have more kids. I think just being clear on what you're okay with is important.

David:

What motivated you to do this? Do you feel like you're serving a higher cause by introducing people and creating relationships, or is it just a business? Tell me.

Amy:

When I started the business, I wasn't looking at it through a spiritual lens at all. I think what I started to realize, though, when I was working with people is that all we are is energy. So it's interesting, those information calls I talk about that I do. I refuse to do video calls, because I can tell that the biggest predictor of success is not what you look like, your age, where you live. It's not what you do for a living. It's actually your energy. So I only do phone calls because I can tell by somehow how their energy is, and spirituality plays into it without my clients even realizing it. It's that law of attraction, and it's manifesting. It's just putting out a really high vibration, great energy. So I've married some of that into my work, which has been wonderful. Now I'm attracting clients who are like, "Yeah, yeah, I manifested amazing other things in my life, and I'm ready." So it's really fun. It's really fun.

David:

What's the law of attraction? I don't know any of this stuff.

Amy:

It's a 2,000-year-old law. Yeah, and it basically is-

David:

2,000 year ...

Amy:

Yeah, and a lot of Olympians use the law of attraction. So it basically is you can manifest. Whatever you really think, your thoughts can manifest. So a lot of Olympic athletes will envision themselves running past the finish line. They'll review it in their head a million times. So you set your eye on a goal, and you have intention plus action. Many of us have manifested lots of great things. We just didn't know the name for it. So my clients come to me, and they've done amazing things in their lives. But this is the one thing that's blocked, because they've got emotional attachments to all kinds of other stuff in the way. But I love helping them clear that old stuff so that they can get the love that they deserve.

David:

That's pretty good. I've got to ask this. I'm just curious. So six out of ten through online. I'm just guessing how many of the four out of ten, how many of those happen at bars, and how many of them happen at work? I'm just curious if you know.

Amy:

I think Apple stores are the way to go. If you love women, just get to an Apple store.

David:

Oh, come on.

Paige:

Dog parks.

Amy:

Dog park?

Paige:

Dog parks. I hear really good thing about dog parks.

Amy:

Dog parks. That's a great idea. I love that one, too. But Apple store, just go in. "Hey, what model should I get? Da da da." It's all single dudes, it seems, or a Bruce Springsteen concert. Oh my gosh. I literally was texting every woman I knew, single woman I knew, "Go to a Bruce Springsteen concert."

Paige:

That's so funny. So I'm originally from California. I moved to Philadelphia, so now I'm on the East Coast. I found the East coast is so much more Bruce Springsteen-obsessed than the West Coast.

Amy:

Oh, completely.

Paige:

I have never seen such a strong cult fan base. I didn't even know it existed for him until I moved out here.

Amy:

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right about that. But yeah, concerts. It's hard. It's really hard to meet people in person these days. Everyone is so isolated and lonely. It's tough.

Paige:

If someone's on a date and it's feeling awkward and they're not sure what to talk about, what are the questions that you just recommend are always questions you can have in the back of your head to bring to a date if it's one of those awkward silent situations?

Amy:

Such good questions, Paige. Yes. I have a couple that I like. I give my clients pages and pages of questions. One of them is what's the biggest plot twist of your life? What's been the biggest plot twist? I think-

David:

That's a good question. That's a great question.

Amy:

It's a really good one. Even if you're not dating, it's just a great question to ask your friends at a family dinner, because I think it evokes something a bit different and maybe something that people don't know about you. I like asking, "If you had to give a TED talk, what would you give it on?," because very often, it's not someone's job. I remember asking Brett, and he was like, "I don't know. That's a tough question." Then later in the day, he was like, "How to not be an asshole." It was very funny. I'm like, "Oh my gosh."

David:

Did he say-

Amy:

That's exactly the one you would get. So I love that question. When's the last time you laughed until you cried? I think humor is so bonding. I don't care if you're bonding over binging Succession, which hi, super guilty of. It's just trying to find those commonalities.

Paige:

Right. Yeah. I feel like I always end up just talking about TV shows and movies. Then I remember I went on a date where this guy was like, "I don't watch TV." I was like, "That is the weirdest thing I've ever heard. I need to go home now."

Amy:

"This is not going to work. Got to go. Not going to work." Yeah, that would not work for me, either. No way.

Paige:

Then just out of curiosity, so if someone shows up and they don't look anything like their pictures at all and you've definitely been catfished, do you tell them to sit through the date and give them a chance or-

Amy:

No.

Paige:

... have you seen people just walk away from that situation because they're already dishonest about who they are?

Amy:

Exactly. It's one thing. This happens a lot, where people either look better than their photos or you realize they put photos from 1972 up, and it's like, "Oh my God." But if they truly, truly aren't who they appear to be, then it is well within your purview to just look at them and say, "You know what? I'm pulling up your profile. This isn't you. It's very clear to me, and that makes me feel super uncomfortable. I'm actually going to leave now." I think we have to give ourselves permission to exit a date for any reason that makes you uncomfortable, period. If someone's too handsy, if someone is too forward with you, if they're too verbally forward, it's okay. It's your choice.

Paige:

Yeah, that makes sense. Then do you still recommend to women to not sleep with guys on their first dates, or do you feel like that is much more just older?

Amy:

No, don't do it. Here's the thing. Yeah, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'm going to tell you what to do. So here's the thing. I don't care what you do after date three. You literally can go do whatever you want. I ask this question on the intake. Do you prefer an emotional connection before a physical one? I ask men, all my clients, and 100% of them say yes. So if you really do prefer to have some sort of emotional connection, then don't sleep with someone on the first date, because it always interferes, always. I don't care who you are, especially women. I don't care what you say. We definitely get a little bit attached in a weird way after we sleep with someone, and we don't know them. It casts a very weird shadow. So just give it three dates of digging deep, learning, texting, all that stuff. Then on day four, just don't tell me about it. Just do whatever you want. I don't want to hear about it.

David:

That's great.

Paige:

Do you recommend for your woman clients to wait for them to reach out, or do you still think that it's okay for a girl to text a guy after a date or whatever it may be?

Amy:

Yeah, so here's the thing, and this is somewhat of an unpopular answer. I'm a big chivalry person. I love chivalry. I love the traditional courting. So I sit my clients down if I have a female client, and I'll say, "What's your preference?" 90% of the time, women of all ages, all ages will say, "I love chivalry," right? So it's interesting, because a lot of the guys are like, "Well, this is a new generation, right? Aren't we supposed to be equal? I want the woman to text me and say that they had a great time and that they want to see me again."

So it's a bit of an interesting landscape. But I do have women who have more of the masculine, and they're like, "No, no, no, no. I'm just going to cut to the chase in the banter. Hey, we should grab a drink." So it's okay. Any way's fine, but just know. Know what you prefer. But I still love the traditional courting and chivalry, where the guy just asks you out, at least at the beginning, until you're exclusive. Once you're exclusive, it's all fine. But I like at the beginning a guy asking. I do.

Paige:

Yeah, I agree with that. Chivalry is not dead, guys.

Amy:

It's not. It's not.

David:

Sounds like it could be a scary world with a lot of people just ... You can put whatever you want online, I'm assuming. Is it a pretty honest world, the online dating scene, or is there a lot of fraud and scary stuff that happens?

Amy:

Of course, in any system, like anything online, there's going to be a bit of that. I think my clients don't encounter a lot of it because I give them a lot of different ways to tell, to tell if all the pictures look somewhat the same, or I really can tell. But one thing that's really important for women is when a guy asks you out on an app and says, "Hey, let's get off the app, da, da, da. Here's my number. Give me your number," don't give your information until you say, "Hey, great. What's your last name? I always ask." Then quickly Google and just make sure that they are who they say they are.

Almost no one does this, no one, and here's the thing. When you ask, there's a good percentage of people who will ghost at that point. Guess why? They don't want you Googling them, right? Then there's some percentage of guys who will get defensive and say, "What? No, I'm not going to give you that. What? Unmatch. Unmatch." We're looking for a gentleman who says, "Hey, you want to be safe. I totally get that. Here's my last name. Go ahead." But I don't know, Paige, if you ever did that, but it's a game-changer, because it saves you so much time.

Paige:

Well, I would definitely be like, "What's your Instagram? Can I follow you on Instagram?" I think that was what I did, because I felt like, "Oh, you can't just make up an Instagram with thousands of followers and comments from those." That makes me reassured, like, "Oh, they are who they say they are. Oh, they say they work at this company, and here's a picture at this company retreat." I don't think anyone who's lying would really give you their Instagram, if that makes sense.

Amy:

Yes. That's a personal preference. Instagram opens up your whole life to someone, so that's a personal preference. I don't love it right away. But yeah.

Paige:

I would feel weird, too, if they would find me on Instagram before I asked. I'm like, "You actually searched me down. That weirds me out, but I understand."

David:

Oh, yeah, that's kind of scary. Yeah.

Amy:

Yeah. Yeah.

David:

Male clients, do they ever ask you out? Does that ever happen?

Amy:

It has happened. I try to screen for that right upfront, but it has happened in the past. But I'm pretty quick to shut that down.

David:

So how much time a day? Because it sounds like you're getting emails all the time. You must spend a lot of time doing this. Is it pretty time-consuming?

Amy:

Well, yes, I'm obsessed with it. I love what I do so much. It's such a gift to be able to help people find love. So I've figured out the exact right calibration of how many clients I can take on at once to leave ... because I leave space. I'm an on-demand coach. When I hang up from this, I will have a slew of texts, like, "SOS. Need to talk to you about tonight's date," whatever.

David:

[inaudible 00:54:35].

Amy:

Yeah. So I keep a very tight, small group of clients so that I can leave space for all that, because there's lots of scenarios.

David:

Do you get texts and stuff on your phone, and so at dinnertime, people will be pinging you?

Amy:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We'll be out. We'll be out. Brett's like, "Oh, what happened with Mary?" No, no, no. I love it. I love it so much. I'm good with boundaries, but I'm pretty good with knowing how to balance my life and my dating practice here.

Paige:

Is there any information you feel like no one should bring up on a first date, no matter what, or do you feel like no topic is off boundaries?

Amy:

It's fine. I like it when people talk about past relationships, let's say, but don't go deep. We don't need to start welling up over how someone broke up with you and it took you so long to get over. I think people make that mistake of giving their life history on a first date. I think deep stuff is great, just touching on it. So I think we just have to be careful in early dating not to spill so much. But yeah, don't talk about anything sexual right away. Let that build. I think people try to play the tape a lot. They try to skip steps of like, "Oh my gosh. It's crazy." They start talking about on date three of maybe, "What kind of wedding do you want?" It's like, "What? No, let's let this build." It's easy to do that. I think when you feel, "Oh my god. Time is of the essence," it's not organic. We need to slow it down.

Paige:

That makes sense.

David:

Do your clients, do they take an index card with the topics they're supposed to cover on the dates and stuff like that?

Amy:

I know. I know. I know. Well, we game it out ahead of time, so they know. There are few questions, but I try to encourage people to just let it flow. I always say, "Have an intention for a date." So if it's just at the beginning, it might be dating goals. I just want to figure out their dating goals this date, and then just have fun. It's not a job interview. Don't hammer with all these questions. Maybe on date four, it's fun. You're trying to go bowling. You're trying to have an activity date so you can see what someone's like in a different scenario. So just have an intention for every date.

Paige:

Let's say you're on Bumble or Hinge. It gives you the option to put, obviously, your age, your job, where you went to school or whatever, but it also has religion and political party affiliation. Do you think it's good for people to put those up there at first, or do you think they should hold off on that? Because I feel like it used to be a faux paw to talk about religion and political party right away. But do you think that's totally fine when it comes to the world of dating?

Amy:

I think it's fine now. Especially if you have passionate views on something, then go ahead and put it in your profile. I just don't like it when someone lists all their preferences for absolutely everything. It's too much. I feel like the profile gets really crowded, and you don't know where to look. But I think for sure the political stuff and religion, but again, only if you're passionate, because otherwise it's just a lot. You can wait. Yeah.

Paige:

Right. That makes sense.

David:

We should end on something real positive, though. Should we end on something where you give advice to your client demographic, the 35-year-olds, and what real uplifting, positive thing you'd say, or you want to say what's so great about Brad in two sentences? Just whatever positive you want to say to close, that would be great.

Amy:

So I would say that it only takes one, and even when you're really frustrated, because dating can be frustrating, and it can be debilitating. It can even be depressing, but I see success stories all the time, every single week. So it's oftentimes when you're at your most frustrated that this person is right around the corner. So just try to remain positive, and they're out there.

David:

That's a great ending. That's great. All right. This has been fantastic.

Paige:

Thank you so much.

Amy:

This has been awesome.

Paige:

Thank you for listening to Disarming Data, and thank you to Eric Montgomery for producing this podcast. To support the podcast, please rate, review, and follow on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. If you'd like to learn more about the current state of data security, head on over to our website, disarmingdata.com.